Curse

Xenomortis · Dec 13, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Also, SS compared to MoP is better when it comes to a fail/average pug group, as the chances of getting them to ball up a mob successfully is zero.

Unless you call a small packet of damage triggering less than once a second worthwhile, MoP will fail when SS does for that reason.

I also rate Fevered Dreams over SS in a PUG for reasons I described here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=107

Premium Unleaded · Dec 13, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.

There are monks and annoying casters everywhere. FD would be alot more helpful than SS in any circumstance; including AoE cripple snare, weakness, Deep Wound, Cracked armour. And alot of damage from Fragility along with those lovely conditions and damage from the PvE shouts.

Xenomortis · Dec 13, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

That's assuming they can actually capitalise on FD's effect.

All they need to do is auto attack any target under the effect of dazed (which should be most of them). There is no need for any of them to provide any conditions of their own - the FD bar brings most of them.

Minions are capable on capitalising on the effect FD has on mobs.

Jeydra · Dec 13, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This way you are giving up the ease of forming a PuG for higher efficiency.
An efficiency that isn't needed due to how sufficient being bad actually is.

This, why bother looking for specific characters and then arguing over builds when you can just go and be done with it? It doesn't take top-level builds to do almost all areas of the game. Critscythe is perfectly fine, so is SoS spamming and HB Monking. It's arguable they are inferior to the best builds available but so what? Considering the time taken to fix them (you might cause some players to rage, too) you could be halfway through the mission already ...

Sankt Hallvard · Dec 13, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

You all have it wrong.

MoP, sos spirit spam, ER, oov, MB and "cleaner"? Wtf is all that crap? You post here to "improve pugs"?

You don't pug to find build synergy or effectively complete pve goals. Pve is already easy enough to h/h most of it. And with great efficiency as well. You pug because you get to play with other people. Most of the charm comes with people running funky stuff, making mistakes that make srs pve'ers like yourselves qq/ragequit/flame and people like myself roll around laughing.

Stop imposing all your shitty "reactive hexing sucks" and "MoP nukez" bullshit on the awesome pugs. Pugging with "random Joe" is the only appealing thing about pve. If you wanna get pro leet about pve join a speedclear guild and compare ecto collections with each other. Leave the pugs alone!!

Cuilan · Dec 13, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I generally don't care for self heals, but I'm not against it. I may bring them however to make up for having a monk instead of an elementalist healer.

One thing I don't care for is how people (PUG or not) who can A/W, D/W, or W/x don't have Save Yourselves. Sometimes I see the non-SY melee as a leecher when there is a second melee with SY.

Basically I just try to adapt to a group if it's random or organized. I don't have any set way of doing anything. If something is needed, it's needed and I will inform party members so. Then go from there.

Fevered Dreams is awesome. Someone on this board said PUGs generally have enough damage, but not enough technique. I think there is room in most PUGs for one person who can make up for that to prevent epic failures. Let's not pretend that everything works exactly how you want it to. It doesn't.

The best thing for PUGs is communication.

HigherMinion · Dec 13, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

You all have it wrong.

MoP, sos spirit spam, ER, oov, MB and "cleaner"? Wtf is all that crap? You post here to "improve pugs"?

You don't pug to find build synergy or effectively complete pve goals. Pve is already easy enough to h/h most of it. And with great efficiency as well. You pug because you get to play with other people. Most of the charm comes with people running funky stuff, making mistakes that make srs pve'ers like yourselves qq/ragequit/flame and people like myself roll around laughing.

Stop imposing all your shitty "reactive hexing sucks" and "MoP nukez" bullshit on the awesome pugs. Pugging with "random Joe" is the only appealing thing about pve. If you wanna get pro leet about pve join a speedclear guild and compare ecto collections with each other. Leave the pugs alone!!

Well, I won't say "you're wrong" because this is your opinion.

I do, however, believe your idea of PvE and Pugging is a little off. Yes it's about playing with players and not heroes and henchmen. But this IS a Massively Multiplayer Online game, and people were supposed to be playing with eachother. A PUG is someone you'll find at an outpost who you don't know, it doesn't mean you can't spend some time in the outpost sorting out your builds.

Before I go into a mission, I want to know for sure if my time will be wasted or if we will win with ease. The "charm" comes with playing with real people and not having to run with idiot AI. Of course PUG.AI is better and if they don't know what's going on, you explain. You teach.

It's not "elitist". It's how people will learn how to improve their playing styles, and progress with a greater knowledge of the game and it's mechanics. We learn from eachother, and eachother's ideas.

Cuilan · Dec 13, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

This, why bother looking for specific characters and then arguing over builds when you can just go and be done with it?

Because PUGs are "known" for failing simple things (I don't agree with it completely, but that's how they're viewed by some vocal people).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Considering the time taken to fix them (you might cause some players to rage, too) you could be halfway through the mission already ...

So you lost someone who isn't a team player?

I PUG whenever possible or at least look for a human partner and found many wonderful people.

Crippie its Tom · Dec 13, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

I don't believe that two ER eles outclasses a well put together dual monk backline. I've played both and swear with the monks.

The Riven · Dec 14, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crippie its Tom

I don't believe that two ER eles outclasses a well put together dual monk backline. I've played both and swear with the monks.

Even if the monks can heal/prot just as well as the ER's the added benefit you get from GDW swings it slightly.

But like almost everything its all personal preference.

HigherMinion · Dec 14, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

Even if the monks can heal/prot just as well as the ER's the added benefit you get from GDW swings it slightly.

But like almost everything its all personal preference.

Well, a Monk and an ER work very differently. It wouldn't surprise me that you didn't have great ER builds/usage.

The Riven · Dec 14, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Well, a Monk and an ER work very differently. It wouldn't surprise me that you didn't have great ER builds/usage.

wanna try reading my post again tom?

Crippie its Tom · Dec 14, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Cuz monks dont have room for GDW right? =D

The Riven · Dec 14, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Its unusual to see it on a monks bar in a pug, though it is also rare to see an ER in a pug GDW is nearly always nailed to the bar.

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 14, 2009, 03:30 AM // 03:30

ER healers and monks are very different.

One you have unlimited energy to spam around, but ER = Shadowform, however if it dies your team get's in trouble.
ER infuse don't carry anti hex/condition.
ER infuse are at 50% health a lot letting heroes/henchies spam their spells on you.
They bond everyone.
The enemy AI will always try to target ER infusers. Enchanted, 50% health, holding bonds, weaker armor, it's the AI dream come true.

HigherMinion · Dec 14, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

ER healers and monks are very different.

One you have unlimited energy to spam around, but ER = Shadowform, however if it dies your team get's in trouble.
ER infuse don't carry anti hex/condition.
ER infuse are at 50% health a lot letting heroes/henchies spam their spells on you.
They bond everyone.
The enemy AI will always try to target ER infusers. Enchanted, 50% health, holding bonds, weaker armor, it's the AI dream come true.

This is why you must be good to play an ER bond/infuser. However if you are observant and make sure you cover ER and cast away from interrupts, etc... Then tell me monks are better. Anyway, is this thread turning into a ER vs Monk thing or is it going to stay on the "pugs need to learn" idea?

The Riven · Dec 14, 2009, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Anyway, is this thread turning into a ER vs Monk thing or is it going to stay on the "pugs need to learn" idea?

I would prefer it to stay on topic, but you have touched there upon one reason why monks are "preferred" in the average pug, there is always going to be a backlash to builds that are alternative to what's seen by the majority of players as "good".

Even on this forum where I like to think we have a large base of experienced people there are constant debates over what builds work best, on the servers themselves it sometimes easier to settle for what some would consider second best (or even third).

While its nice to find yourself in a very very good pug team, full of people who are familiar with a variety of builds/tactics and have quite a good understanding of the game, the vast majority of people are just casual players who do not read these forums, hell you will be lucky if they even glance at some of the PvX builds.

HigherMinion · Dec 14, 2009, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Is it just a coincidence most players are running builds from PvX then? problem is some of the "Great" PvX builds are awful. Atleast the variants are, even if the idea is good.

Also, every pug wants to bring Summon Ruby Djinn or Pain Inverter, I see it in every pug; even warriors give it a go... Madness.

glacialphoenix · Dec 14, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

This is why you must be good to play an ER bond/infuser. However if you are observant and make sure you cover ER and cast away from interrupts, etc... Then tell me monks are better. Anyway, is this thread turning into a ER vs Monk thing or is it going to stay on the "pugs need to learn" idea?

You do realise that the very notion of PUGs not being good players is exactly why the PUG meta is the way it is right now? You don't know what the guy is capable of, hence you go for the most failsafe method.

I mean, yeah, you can go on and on about how PUGs should be better players and appreciate better builds, but what's the point of showing them better builds if they don't have the ability to play them? What's the point of giving the guy a better bar if he's got zero survival instinct? (Admittedly, if that's the case, he'd fail regardless of whatever bar you asked him to run.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Because PUGs are "known" for failing simple things (I don't agree with it completely, but that's how they're viewed by some vocal people).

This is precisely why people don't bother. If PUGs can fail simple things, why would you trust them with something that is potentially more difficult to play, and spend time and energy correcting them if it's going to be a relatively short mission? You'll never see them again, so most people just settle for 'good enough'. (If you're going into a long mission, sure, take your time - but would you spend all that time preparing for, say, Unwaking Waters, which is the current ZMission? Masters is 15 mins, after all.) For most people, they'll never see these guys again. If by chance you got a good group, it's 'ty all, gj, great team, cya'. If you fail, you join another group, and - especially in Cantha missions - it's not all that much time wasted. Of course you make sure your team's not working against each other, but that's as far as it goes.

Also, if everyone was willing to learn, we probably wouldn't be seeing this thread now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Is it just a coincidence most players are running builds from PvX then? problem is some of the "Great" PvX builds are awful. Atleast the variants are, even if the idea is good.

Probably not everyone goes to PvX, but it kind of spreads through the players. Guy A goes to PvX, meets people who have never seen PvX, tells them to run PvX bar. After a while, it becomes a staple. Kind of like, back in pre-nerf Ursan, you'd have people pinging "Run this (Healer's Boon) bar", so after a while, if you were to monk for Ursans, you'd run that bar, even if you'd never laid eyes on PvX in your entire life.